Re: Sex and Candy (for Bach, Wolfcub, Ben, and Nate)
Submitted by Bach on March 18 2002 17:44:31
In reply to Sex and Candy (for Bach, Wolfcub, Ben, and Nate) submitted by Splash! on March 16 2002 04:16:51
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Hi Splash!, I bit of brain-racking is good for all of us. ;-) My theological basis for all human relationships - sexual and non-sexual:
The basic principles which flow from these verses are 1) Glorify God in everything that you do. (insofar as is possible, this *should* be our goal) and 2) show God's Love to those around us as we think He would share His love. (again, not always possible, but always the goal) This sounds a lot like the goals you summarized: 1) No sex before marriage (define it how you will) 2) Be loving and unselfish 3) Don't do anything that would damage or harm the other person I think that keeping these principles in mind will help answer several questions - a. the importance of marriage and committed relationships b. the question of same-sex relationships c. the question of adult-minor relationships Marriage, Divorce and Committed Relationships Do you believe that God has changed his will for committed relationships? Why did God allow Old Testament Kings, Prophets and others more than one wife? Why did God allow men to divorce women? What is the intent behind Jesus' statement on divorce? The justification behind committed relationships lies in both tradition/practice and the Word of God. But the men of the Old Testatment seemed to have the option of divorcing their wives on a whim. Where was the committment? Where did the man uphold his responsibilities to wife and children? I believe that Jesus was highlighting the plight of women, and their lack of power in that particular society, when he commanded men not to divorce their wives.
The two becoming one flesh seems to be a strong indication of the kind of committment and relationship God intends for us. Without a doubt, this intention for creation is first and foremost to be between a man and a woman. I think that if God places in your heart a desire to have an intimate relationship with a woman, then that is the path you should follow. If, however, that desire is not present, then the next course of action, as Paul says, is to remain single.
In my own journey, I have lived alone for 10 years. I was extremely lonely and unhappy. I felt a strong calling to share my life with another person, but I knew that to find the right person would be a very great challenge. When God led me to my partner, my eyes were opened to the possibility of living in a committed relationship that fulfilled my needs - emotional, physical and spiritual - as well as honouring and glorifying God with my heart and actions. I am convicted of this reality. Same-sex Relationships I used to think that same-sex relationships had to be part of the "gay culture" - and I was without a doubt outside of that subculture. So, to my way of thinking, there wasn't much point in "being gay". I have never really pursued that community. When someone talks about the "gay lifestyle" or some such, I have experiences (such as the one you related, Splash) that pop into my head and I always come to the conclusion that those people aren't talking about my life - because my life doesn't look anything like "casual sex". As I have come to know some Gay Christians, I have found that there are many people trying to live out lives of committment that honour God, and yet are just beyond the traditional framework of the Church. Because I believe that God is bigger than what we see within our denominational churches today, I also believe that some of the church's positions may be more informed by social convention and societal pressures than by the Will of God. This may well be another point of conflict between Forgiven and myself... since we were on about the role of God within institutional structures such as government... I can accept that promiscuity is not God's will. I am not prepared to limit sexual expression to procreation. My own life experience and my understanding of Scriptures indicates that sexual contact is a component of intimate relationships that allow two persons to bond together in a special way. If those persons are in a committed relationship then I believe that God blesses that act of intimacy. These kinds of relationships most often occur in marriage. Are there other circumstances where they might occur outside of a formal marriage convenant? Probably. How does God want us to interact in those instances? One of the purposes of marriage is to make a public statement of committement to your partner so that family and friends might assist in the process of accountability. I think that there are ways of doing this within a same-sex relationship. I know of some people who choose a public ceremony like marriage - called in some places a Holy Union. I think that if the relationship is understand amongst a small group of people that the accountability process is in place. My understanding of Jesus' teaching on divorce is to be faithful to your partner. I think that the statement reflects more on how to love, than who to love. (BTW, I got that last phrase from a friend who posts here from time to time - Ford Prefect.) Jesus doesn't seem to be spending a lot of time outlining which sexual acts are appropriate for whom and in what circumstances. He mostly seems concerned that some men are divorcing their wives and not showing accountability for the committment they had made. The sin comes into any adult-adult relationship when one of the partners does not respect the intimacy and boundary of that intimacy within the covenant - whether publicly or privately made. The legal aspect of whether that person is properly married *can* certainly become a factor, but I don't see it as the essential element to this equation. Adult-Minor Relationships When is an adult-minor relationship life-giving and when does it become sinful? What is appropriate activity for a boylover to have with his young friend? You have already made several very pertinent comments on this theme: The MAIN reason why I am not sexual with boys is because I also believe it is damaging to them. I don't believe this same type of harm is possible among adult-adult heterosexual and homosexual relationships. I'm not sure *exactly* which harm you speak of, its criteria, and why it is not present in adult-adult relationships. I agree that the biblical question is: is this relationship going to be life-giving or is the potential harm too great? I think that we can ask this question, and seek responses, on many levels. And, if for no other, the great harm that comes with illegal activities must be enough reason to abstain from such relationships in terms of sexual contact. As an adult, I wouldn't want to take the risk of making that decision and later finding out that it had a horrible effect on the child (even if this type of release could be defined as natural). I also agree that the unknown... we don't know how the child would react... is a factor which encourages us to err on the side of caution. Even if *I* think that a certain set of circumstances might allow for a positive outcome, there is no assurance that this will come to pass. While we can assume that adults are fully responsible for their choices, it is assumed that children are not. Whether that assumption is truly appropriate might bear scrutiny. In any case, current wisdom dictates that the outcome is likely to be ultimately negative. (such as the consequences of a court process) When we go this route, we would do well to bear in mind those persons who are now adults that talk of being rejected as teens. Some teenagers actively seek out sexual experiences with men, and have been harmed by the adult's rejection. How does this reality fit into our paradigm? Assuming the average case, it most likely is unethical to enagage in certain activities with children, but biblically speaking and considering those outside the average case, it may be possible that these same activities are NOT seen as sinful or unethical but helpful instead. I don't know where, and I don't know how (or want to know how). Well, I'm going to make passing references anyway. :) There have been specific cultural settings where limited sexual contact with what we would define as minors is considered normal and helpful. In those particular contexts, do our definitions and social mores apply? What about a case where a young gay man approaches an adult BL? What if your country has an age of consent that defines a 14 or 15 year old as being competent to decide for himself what he wishes to do with his body? In the case where there are no legal ramifications I believe that our sense of good/bad, right/wrong is much more difficult to pin down. Then we get back to our "no sex before marriage" which we have already admitted is often ignored by many Christians. If same-sex committed relationships are acceptable, is it possible for an adult-minor relationship to have this level of committment? I know personally of a BL who met his young friend when the BL was in his 20s and the YF was a teenager. They are still together today... 40s and 50s respectively. It is not beyond the imagination! There's several verses that back up each principle, and I've broken both of them many times in my adult relationships; though, even then, I felt I was doing it for "ethical" reasons, especially in my last relationship with the woman. This statement really interests me... because I have come to know you as a "conservative Christian" who believes that certain truths are "immovable". So I'm wondering how you could believe that the Bible means one thing, but doesn't apply to a particular circumstance. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you have communicated. If this kind of flexibility is present for sex outside of marriage, surely it must also apply to adult-minor relationships. It seems wholly dependant on circumstance. I've always tried to stay away from thinking that boysex was ever okay. I think you are not alone in this. And I find that thought scary. Because if we don't know *why* we have certain convictions, they might well change with the wind. I don't think its helpful to say that boy sex is never okay... I think its best to examine each circumstance and measure its potential for harm. And in that light, we can say that boy sex is almost always too harmful to contemplate. But, to deny the combination of a horny BL and an interested boy, might blind us to our convictions and could be putting our head in the sand. Maybe the problem is also when the kid realizes that the adult who had this type of relationship with him was just taking advantage of him (the kid) for the adult's own pleasure? What happens if the kid appreciates what the adult has offered... at great personal risk to both of them... and it is a life-changing event that transforms their relationship to each other and God? Is it possible for God to bless this kind of intimacy? Peace of Christ, Bach |
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