Re: One assumption you seem to be making
Submitted by sally on April 2 2002 12:31:06
In reply to One assumption you seem to be making submitted by Forgiven on March 29 2002 16:15:59
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Hi Forgiven, One assumption you are making is that sexual attraction is of the fallen world, rather than a part of the creation as God made it 'good'. I really don't think that there is really a justification for that - how would Adam and Eve fulfilled the command to 'go forth and multiply', which is given in Genesis cpt 1. I meant to suggest not that sexual desire is from the fallen world but that pedophilia and homosexual desire and bestialty and, in fact, any desire besides that of a man for his wife or a wife for her husband came about after the fall. I believe that the only nonsinful sexual desire is the desire a man and wife have for one another. I must admit to a degree of unhelpful pleasure at your response to my suggestion about Jesus and John. Let me say again - I am NOT suggesting that anything inappropriate happened. I am saying that there might have been a sexual component to attraction that was a part of its depth and reality. And the fact that you were reacting so strongly suggests that you haven't really integrated your doctrine of the incarnation with the reality of innocent sexual attraction. Could it be that if a man is sexually attracted to another man or a child it is not innocent sexual attraction? If the incarnate Christ is a perfect man not subject to the effects of the fall-- not born with a sin nature, and if sexual desire for anyone, other than a spouse, is sin, then Christ could not have been sexually attracted to John. Now you may disagree with my contention that sexual desire outside of marriage is sin, but you are wrong to think that I haven't a well-developed doctrine of the incarnation. Those of us who have to struggle with being BLs have to work these issues through a lot to construct a way that we can live with. There is an alternative - to live in absolute denial of the presence of a sexual element in the world at all - but it's not one that I believe is actually what is consistent with a proper understanding of the real nature of the creation. Can you not live with the idea that there is something wrong with your sexual desire? Saying that sexual desire outside of marriage is wrong does not deny the presence of sex in the world. I think that all men (and women) need to face the music. We are fallen people. Our sexual desires are all bent out of shape. How can we think that the desire for a child, or a family member, or an animal, or some opposite-sex partner we are not married to, is a good thing when to act on such a desire would be an evil thing? How can the desire for evil be good? Hmm - now that's an interesting comment. What does it mean to 'have a gift of celibacy'. You appear to be implying that it would be the absence of any sexual desires. That is what I've thought the gift of celibacy was. If a man burns it is better to marry. I would think that if one had the gift of celibacy it could be assumed that he was not burning. If you claim that the gift of celibacy is such an absence, then the next question is whether Jesus had it. If he did, then he wasn't 'tested as we were in every way, but without sin'. If not how can he say that he has been tempted in every way? This doesn't work. Do you think that Jesus had the desire to ... have sex with the donkey he rode into Jerusalem or the sheep in the fields? To even speak this way about Jesus makes me rather ill. I don't believe that Jesus desired to have sex with any man, woman, child or animal. He is the Creator... fully God as well as fully man. And yes, he could be fully man without sexual desire for anyone. He was perfect man and therefore did not lust after anyone and couldn't desire sex outside of marriage, I believe. And to say that he never desired to have sex with a boy or a dog or a woman or that he never desired to lie or to cheat or to covet or curse or murder is not to say that he hasn't been tempted in everyway. Sin is nothing more or less than rebellion against God. He was tempted heavily to rebel against God and to throw in his lot with the Satan. He refused. I believe that he was more or less continually tempted from there on out. We see him tempted by Peter's rebuke... His temptation was always the same... Satan holding out power to him if he would disobey the Father. Satan encouraging him to not drink from the cup his Father had set before him. That is the only temptation that can overtake a man born without a sin nature. He is not tempted by internal desires. And was he not tempted in every way as we are? How are we tempted? We are tempted always to rebel against God. So Jesus was tempted in every way that we are. But I don't think he was ever tempted to have sex with John or to yell at his son-- oh he never had a son-- so how was he tempted to yell, like I am, when my son has pulled some stupid stunt? So he must have lived a life where his sexuality was not expressed in wrong ways. That is therefore possible (he was fully man and we can live to that standard). Well at least we agree he lived a sinless life. And the writer of Hebrews tells us that we have not resisted to the point of shedding blood. He tells us to consider Jesus who endured the cross scorning its shame so that we don't become weary in well-doing. But I think what we are to consider is his taking on that cross-- he looked to heaven, he saw the joy set before him... he looked past the present pain at the goal of heaven and obedience to the Father and bringing many sons to the Father and for that joy, he went to the cross. We also are to look at eternity and know that these stupid little crosses we bear, fighting our own depravity, are nothing compared to the weight of Christ's cross and also nothing compared with the weight of glory. He not only was tempted with everything we are tempted with he was tempted far beyond what any of us have ever been tempted with. For the temptation becomes stronger as one resists. We give in to our temptations fairly quickly. We have never resisted to the point of sweating blood or shedding blood. Jesus, the sinless man who had lived from eternity past in perfect love and communion with his Father, was headed for the cross where his sin-hating self would become clothed in the putrid stuff and where his beloved Father would break off their loving communion. Instead of the love he shared with his Father-- all the wrath of God that was aimed at our sin would be laid upon his tortured back. He was tempted far beyond what you or I have ever endured. Yet he set his face like steal and headed for Jerusalem. Praise God. The reason we can live and not express our sexuality in wrong ways is, "I have been crucified with Christ and no longer live but Christ lives in me, the life I live in the body I live by faith in the Son of God who loved me and gave himself for me." Christ lives in us, the hope of glory. It is not that since he can do it so can I, by sheer willpower, follow in his footsteps. He actually lives in us and his strength is made perfect in our weakness. It is his strength that fights our foes-- not his example. He showed us how we have to walk-- sinlessly. Be perfect as I am perfect. The student is not above the master. We are to do as he did-- he did leave the example-- we are to pick up our crosses and follow him. But we do not follow in our own power as men. I don't think we say, "Well if Jesus did it so can I, he was a man and if he could do it so can I." We say, "He has already done it. He has defeated sin. Sin is not my master anymore. I am a slave to righteousness. I don't obey in my own power, I obey in God's power." My own belief - backed by the comments of celibates whom I've had contact with - is that the sexual attraction is still there - but you learn to live with.... Some make themselves eunuchs for the Kingdom of God, Jesus says. I don't know enough about that to argue it with you. Maybe they still have sexual desires from time to time. I think that it is not so strong that they would define themselves by it or have a need to discuss it much. I am a BL because my main 'target' of attraction is males far younger than me. Given that reality - and that I have to cope with that reality in my life and have to learn to cope with the hostility of the world and the lack of comprehension of most other Christians - I have found a real 'home' here at CBF where we are all struggling with the issue. I don't know if you've got contact with other people who have quadraplegic spouses; if so you may know what I mean about being able to share issues that are totally outside the comprehension of most people. It helps A LOT to have these online friends! Once, when I was struggling with a certain temptation, a woman came to me and told me a story about her life and a temptation she had. I did not know that woman and on the surface it looked like we had very little in common. But she had struggled with the same temptation I had. I don't know how she knew to tell me the story. But I know I walked away feeling like God had physically reached into my life to tell me that he loved me and that he did care about my thoughts and he was aware of my struggle and able to support me through it. For me, it was not necessary that I seek out others who shared my temptation. God brought one to me to encourage me when he saw I needed it, I guess. But I'm not sure that is wrong to seek out people who understand us. What I disagreed with here was not the mutual support but the idea that pedophilia it is not a perverted sexual desire. I believe that any sexual desire outside of a desire for one's spouce is perverted. So get with others who have perverted desires, almost anyone who has ever lived should fit the bill, I think, but don't convince yourself that your perversions are given by God. They are not. They are a result of the fall. sally@paraklesis.com |
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