You're welcome
Submitted by Bach on February 26 2002 16:28:46
In reply to Thanks for the invite.... submitted by Forgiven on February 25 2002 13:24:51
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Given such a high view of God's working through states, and given that the bible tells us not to murder, but clearly endorses killing on legitimate authority, I really don't have a problem with appropriate, justified wars; If I agreed with this premise, then I would likely agree with its conclusion. Much of this line of argument comes from taking the LONG perspective; in a few thousand years when we will still have forever to spend with God in his perfect environment, all these things will be distant memories. I'm not sure that I see how the "long perspective" changes what God has told us through Christ in terms of loving our enemies. Perhaps that passage was rubbish?? And justice will be done when God judges the world - though that many will be forgiven things that we struggle to forgive will no doubt be hard. On this point there can be no doubt - we are in full agreement. The sticking point for me is that God endorses, or permits killing by States on His legitimate authority. This is the premise that I cannot accept from my reading of the New Testament. While God worked through the people of Israel, and many violent acts were condoned (at least in the understanding of the Hebrew people) in the Old Testament, Jesus Christ came in the New Testament to bring light to the captives, free the prisoners, and so forth. This new revelation of how God wants His people to adore Him and all creation supersedes, in my understanding, the kill and pillage notions of the Old Testament. I don't believe that this is unbiblical: Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance--now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.The first example you gave of God's authority legitimized in the State was the killing of Herod by the angel: On the appointed day Herod, wearing his royal robes, sat on his throne and delivered a public address to the people. They shouted, "This is the voice of a god, not of a man." Immediately, because Herod did not give praise to God, an angel of the Lord struck him down, and he was eaten by worms and died. But the word of God continued to increase and spread.I suppose this is an example of a God who is more vengeful, despite Christ's sacrifice, than merciful. But I don't think it is support for mass killings on the scale of WWI or WWII. I don't think this is support for bombing innoccent Afghani children so that we might eradicate the Taliban and any supposed terrorists protecting themselves by hiding amongst the innoccent and powerless. I believe that God smote Herod because he refused to be faithful, to give God the glory. He chose to rely on his own power and wealth instead of recognizing and following God's will. This is a personal moment... much like the trials of King David, who was of the heart of God. Likewise I think the destruction of the Temple is more of a foreshadowing of the Revelations than of a State power being vanquished by men. I find the Letter to the Romans more convincing, however: Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honour.Especially as a boylover I have great difficulty with For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong for even though I have done no wrong, I am being persecuted. At least, if I made known my sexual attraction, it would seem likely to me that unjust persecution would follow. I do not believe that all rulers are God-appointed, and so there must be some other meaning to this passage. If leaders are listening to God's will, then they will honour and show dignity for human life. The agent of wrath again forces me to reflect on what is God's wrath, what is man's understanding of God's wrath, and what is man-made justification for killing fellow human beings. I think that the just Wrath of God is to be interpreted rather differently... in light of the saving grace of Christ Jesus. But then... we really do see things differently... Peace of Christ, Bach |
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