Something about Mary
Submitted by Dirk Gently on February 21 2000 at 02:10:12
In reply to Re: What do Catholics believe? Submitted by Heather on February 19 2000 at 22:19:24
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Hi, Heather. I'm always glad to "liven things up." Just a couple of points I'd like to clarify in your post... 1) I think the part about "Mary is still alive" that you're thinking of is the doctrine of the Assumption, which says that Mary's body was taken to heaven after she died. Actually, Catholics believe that Mary did not die physically, but was bodily assumed into heaven, just as Enoch and Elijah were. This didn't become official Catholic dogma until the 19th century, although it was a popular (but by no means unanimous) theological opinion before then. The Orthodox view is closer to what you described, in that we say she "fell asleep" and then her body was assumed into heaven. Unlike the case with Christ's resurrection, she did not appear to others after her death. There is an early church document (I believe it was first century, although I'm not sure about that) which describes the circumstances around her death, and the fact that her tomb was discovered to be empty three days after her dormition. (Side note for wannabe linguists and other freaks like myself: the Greek word used to describe "falling asleep" is koimisiV, from which we get the word "cemetary." The latinized version of this word is "dormition," which I used above. I'm sure some of us here have slept in dormitories before.) Mary isn't alive because she was resurrected, she is alive because she accepted the Lord Jesus Christ into her heart. (If ya wanna be technical, I guess it was really her womb, but take a look at Luke's account and see how often she treasured things in her heart.) And remember what Christ said when the Saducees were trying to trap him? "He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him." (Luke 20:38, see also Matthew 22:32 and Mark 12:27) Also, at the raising of Lazarus, Christ said, "I am the resurrection and the life; whoever believes in me, even if he dies, will live, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?" (John 11:25,26) 2) Not only Mary, but anyone who has died, can be prayed to by Catholics and, I believe, Orthodox Christians (Dirk can correct me if I'm wrong). . . The basic theory behind it, though, is that the communion of saints isn't broken at the time of death, so people on earth can stay in touch with people who have died, by means of prayer. Ummm, no. The way you've described it, it sounds like necromancy. At CBF, we've got a Prayer Room where we post concerns and situations for others to pray about. (If we didn't have biblical support for this, I would say it doesn't make sense to ask someone else to pray for me, when I can go directly to God myself.) This is a fairly static forum, where there's a request, prayers In reply to that request, and occasionally a follow-up to let us know what has happened. It's not a board, either chat or Ouija. I think this can work as an analogy for the relation between the church on earth and the church in heaven, if we add the qualifier that God Himself is the ISP and server. It is the love of God which is the bond of fellowship between all Christians. This is one of the things I was trying to get at in my post on the Trinity a few months ago. When Christ said that He is the true vine, he identifies us, the living, as those who must bear fruit. In other words, the roots of this vine are heavenly, with a direct connection to believers on earth. He told the disciples that anyone who does not remain in Him will be gathered and burned, but that those who remain in Him, and in whom His words remain, will "ask for whatever you want and it will be done for you." If we accept the premise that the apostles are alive in Christ, it follows that their intercessions on behalf of the church are on-going and effective. There's at least one other element in the background here. The last time I checked, I was still a sinner. I've been forgiven (and thank God for that!) but I am still struggling daily to keep Christ's commandments, to walk in His love. However, those who have run the race and are now described as a great cloud of witnesses have been united to Christ. This is one of the implications of theosis that I posted about much earlier. FOD and Jules both posted on this topic, as well, although I doubt they would want to apply it the way I am here. :^) And finally, just a quick note about communion. You wrote: This is as opposed to the classic Protestant view, which is that the bread and water are purely symbolic. The significance of Communion was one of the very first issues which led to the splintering of the non-Catholics in the West. There were and are many "classic Protestant" views. (Another topic that created much schism was the significance of baptism. I recently discovered that one of my ancestors was the last person to be publicly executed by the Calvinists in Switzerland. He was put to death for the "heresy" of insisting on believers' baptism.) Dirk (who is now finally going to bed) |