Paul
Submitted by Ray on February 11 1999 at 05:57:21
In reply to Naturally, love Submitted by F.O.D. on February 10 1999 at 16:52:29
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F.O.D., Would be nice to ask St. Paul (and/or Jesus) a few questions here, wouldn't it? :-) But as my sister (73, legally blind, widowed 1.5 yrs) said tonight after I pointed out to her that one of her cats died (her favorite pet!) sometimes ya' just have to deal with things as they are! I take Paul to mean by "unnatural" in this passage (Rom 1:26-27) any same-gender sex. If Paul is saying that same-gender sex is unnatural, then I disagree with Paul on that point! I would be very cautious in deciding what Paul is about in this passage. For one thing, I'd even use his own words against him. Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the degrading of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie ... Rom 1:24-25a NRSV Therefore you have no excuse, whoever you are, when you judge others; for in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you the judge, are doing the very same things. You say, "We know that God's judgment on those who do such things is in accordance with truth." ... For he will repay according to each one's deeds: to those who by patiently doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; while for those who are selfseeking and who obey not the truth but wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. Rom 2:1-2, 6-9 So what we (and you and Paul) are after here is to know what God's "truth" is! But leaving "absolute truth" aside for the moment, let's look at discerning what Paul is trying to say. I stated that Paul may have observed unnatural lust and idolatry (and I'm going way out on a limb in speculation here)! The question in my mind is what references Paul had that sparked the Romans 1:26f passage. Was his only awareness of same-gender sex that of temple prostitution or other partying among the nobles and riffraff, Jews and Gentiles and brothers and sisters? (My awareness of same-gender sex differs in that I'm unaware of any temple prostitution.) I'm assuming that Paul had the "heterosexual assumption," i.e., that God created everyone heterosexual and anything other than heterosexual was "unnatural." They were filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, covetousness, malice. Full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, craftiness, they are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, rebellious toward parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. They know God's decree, that those who practice such things deserve to die -- yet they not only do them but even applaud others who practice them. Rom 1:29-32 So what happens to those who put such things as these aside and encourage others to do the same, but find themselves bearing a same-gender/sex attraction? And then determining that that attraction is "natural," God-given? Personally, I think then Paul's understanding of the nature of things and God's truth falls a wee bit short! for though they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their senseless minds were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools; and they exchanged the glory of the immortal God ... Rom 1:21-23a Reminds me of events in the Church discussion of homosexuality! Everyone knows that the earth is flat and the sun, moon and stars go around it!!!!! After all, didn't you read: And God said, "Let there be lights in the dome of the sky to separate the day from the night; and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years, and let them be lights in the dome of the sky to give light upon the earth." And it was so. God made the two great lights -- the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night -- and the stars. God set them in the dome of the sky to give light upon the earth, to rule over the day and over the night and to separate the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. And there was ev ening and there was morning, the fourth day. Genesis 1:14-19 God said it, so it is, so why even think about anything else????? Actually, F.O.D., I put off the question of what ired me! I'm not quite sure! Maybe it was a reminder of futile, senseless, darkened minds or something like that! Give yourself time for God to show you truth! When you find yourself telling God you've already learned patience, that you're ready for something new, you're on the right track! Ray |