Jimf3, Dbl Standards & Bible
Submitted by Ray on July 10 1999 at 09:55:47
In reply to Double Standards and the Bible Submitted by Ben on July 06 1999 at 21:12:43
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Ben, you wrote: ..., then it would appear that the bible is written for (and God is only interested in) straight people, a notion which is completely absurd. Using this logic, we would further conclude that the bible is right for some people and not for others, which ultimately means that the bible is NOT the ultimate standard but is a human invention. I do believe that men should not lie with other men, as is clearly commanded in Leviticus. But I am NOT sure that men who are gay are just supposed to either act straight or go to hell. And Jim wrote previously: MAn, have you swallowed a crock of dog shit, dude. You need to seriously WAKE UP. Are you really insisting that people follow the Bible literally? Come ON. Jim does have a way with words, but I suppose I'm coming out closer to Jim in my advice to you about sin, Bible and straight's and families than I am to affirming your thinking. And, I usually bite my tongue instead of saying something like the quote of Jim's above every time Heather suggests to gays and BL's at this point in the discussion that a viable alternative is: "Well, you can always be celibate!" That just puts off till a later time the exploration of sex within a Christian lifestyle. I didn't start until I was 39 and a senior at seminary! First off, I do believe that it is OK for men to lie with men and women to lie with women, entirely opposed to Leviticus and Romans. When it comes to "lying," Christianity for me has little to do with whether the gender of the other person is same or opposite, but how you "lie"! This may be a first for me in coming right out and saying that. In a conversation a while ago I failed miserably at explaining how about 15 years ago thinking like you are -- which is holding to commonly held beliefs in the Christian Church and our society -- led to the breakup of a YF and I 10 years ago. (That may be simplifiying the break up, but after 10 years of self-examination and some conversation with the YF -- though we are not in contact -- it still seems most accurate.) After four years of the deepest trust and respect for each other, I pulled back within the relationship when sex entered the picture -- chiefly because I thought I shouldn't be encouraging sex, but I also felt that I shouldn't discourage his exploration of sex (he was in his midteens) -- a lot of the similar types of thinking to what you seem to be doing. That the Bible appears to be written for (and God is only interested in) straight people is, to me, a human invention. And it doesn't work for gays and BL's to read the Bible with straight eyes, particularly when it comes to things such as sin. Straight people may need to read the Bible to convict them of their sin, gays and BL's got enough of that conviction just from being who they are in our society. Gays and BL's need to search the Bible to convict themselves of their righteousness! For example: For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of yourself more highly than you ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned. Romans 12:3 NRSV Married straights, with 2.5 children and things going well in their lives, may have to be concerned about self-pride, but most gays & BLer Christians have to be concerned about not thinking more lowly of themselves than they ought to think, but to think with sober judgment! I've thrown a lot of stuff out here and I'm not sure I made any sense. And I don't have time to go back over it to see what I've said. Maybe what it all boils down to, Ben, is this advice: Use sober judgment and be careful of "human invention" that passes for the Word of God! And if you happen to see Jim again sometime, give him a hug! :-) I think he has your best interests at heart! Ray |