[responses to several posts in this thread]
Submitted by d on July 12 1999 at 22:39:00
In reply to Double Standards and the Bible Submitted by Ben on July 06 1999 at 21:12:43
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I was in earlier today to ask for prayer and this thread (and another) intrigued me so I came back & read it. Ben wrote in a top-level post "Double Standareds and the Bible" But I am NOT sure that men who are gay are just supposed to either act straight or go to hell. I was going to comment on this but Chris and Fish did a better job than I would have. In the same article Ben wrote: If this [that gay men are supposed to act straight or go to hell] is the case, most will just reject God anyway before they have a chance to realize how blessed their lives can be. You've just spotted one of the devil's favorite tools: the FUD factor, fear uncertainty, and doubt. "I sin anyways and have no plans to stop, God hates sin, so he must hate me." Bzzt, try again. God hates sin. He loves sinners. I've been estranged from God's loving hands more times than I can count. Not fun. I don't have any basis of comparison, but I'm guessing it's worse than being estranged from your family, lover/spouse, or best friend. I saw several posts that said basicly the same thing. Ben wrote in Re: Double Standards and the Bible In reply to Heather: Furthermore, to count lukewarm Christian's and people who are actively leading gay lives as Christians, begs the question: "What does it mean to be Christian" Good observation. We (Christians) have sincerely disagreed amongst ourselves about many issues over history, with both sides saying "how can you be a Christian and disagree with me". In the early 1800, it was slavery (how can a Christian dare condemn slaveholding? How can a Christian dare NOT condemn slaveholding?), in parts of the 1800s and 1900s it was "demon alchohol" (how can a Christian dare drink? How can he dare condemn drinking?). Today, among other issues, it is certain sexual practices (how can a Christian condemn someone else for using God's gift of sexuality? How can a Christian dare to NOT condemn that which God or his spokemen (appear to) condemn?). I guess my point is that, among Christians, the debate over whether homosexual practice is a sin is still alive and well, and you should not presume your brother to be insincere if he doesn't agree with you. He may very well be wrong in the long run, but do not question his sincerity. Personally, I think the Bible speaks against it, but it's not as crystal-clear as other teachings like "love thy neighbor" and I COULD be wrong. Even if I beleived with all my heart that the Bible clearly spoke against such practices among Christians, I cannot doubt the sincerity of those who beleive otherwise. There are churches, including a major minority group in my own denomination, which see nothing wrong with having practicing homosexuals in the pulpit. I assume this means they don't see it as a sin. My own denomination, like several others, is divided on the issue of whether sex between two men or two women is a sin or not. Currently and for the forseeable future the "it's a sin" group has the majority opinion, but it is by no means a consensus. My denomination is fairly democratic, which means, theoreticly at least, if enough (say, a million) Christians who beleived otherwise joined, the balance of opinion would shift. Ben wrote in Re: Double Standards and the Bible In reply to Fish: Hebrews 10:2 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left... Also read Romans 6:11 Ben, please reread Hebrews 2 and Romans 6. Hebrews 2 explains that, previous to Jesus, it was necessary to sacrifice at the temple on a regular basis, but that it is no longer necessary to do so: The blood of The Lamb is sufficient to cover all of your sins, past, present and future. The interpretation you present, that if you deliberately keep sinning there is no blood left to cleanse the new sins, is a new one on me. [I hope I completely misread your post.] Romans 6 (particularly 11-14) is Paul telling you that you SHOULD count yourselves dead to sin. He is not saying that if you don't you will be condemned, merely (I think) that you will be missing out on much of what God has to offer on this world. IMHO Living a life with non-deliberate sin is like living in a city with air pollution - it impacts your ability to breath. Living IN sin is like smoking (no offense to anyone who smokes) - it may taste good but you are hurting yourself with each sin (or cigarette). In either case, God loves you. As one who "lives in a polluted city" and occassionally "smokes", I can testify to what it's like to be temporarily estranged from (yet still loved by) God. I don't recommend it. Giving up "smoking" is darn hard, and I "sneak a puff" way too often (once is too often, but you know what I mean). Disclaimer: The above are just my opinions. Your opinions may differ, and, when discussing religious matters which can't be known for certain this side of Heaven, you may be right and I may be wrong or vice-versa and we may never be able to convince one another of his wrongness. -David ("d") |