Two steps at a time ....
Submitted by F.O.D. on May 08 1999 at 19:46:11
In reply to One step at a time .... Submitted by tks on May 08 1999 at 14:42:08
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Hey you guys, I almost can't keep up with you, there's so much to write about! I'll take up two of the main points you've brought up. Exclusivity and uniqueness. Is Christianity, the ONLY way? It is our hearts that God wants....MAYBE there are other routes to God besides through Jesus. I really wonder about about the salvation of those who were not touched by the words of "Jesus Christ" "Salvation is found in no-one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved" Acts 4:12 The good Book tells us Jesus is the only way. The Bible says it. I believe it. hehe Yes, I do believe it, actually, but I agree it's a perfectly good question to ask about everyone who has never heard of Jesus. This, by the way, is I believe one of Heather's pet subjects, so if we make a bit more noise about it we might be able to get her to jump in too. I see it as a question of mechanism. Jesus is the "mechanism" by means of which we are forgiven. But, to a point, it is possible (I suspect) to be ignorant of that mechanism, and still have it act upon you. But you have to understand that it is still Jesus who saves you, even if you don't know his name. In my opinion the best exposition of this idea is given by C.S. Lewis in "The Last Battle" (7th in the Narnia series), well I won't give the story away here ;) (look for the heathen soldier). Like Ben said, what God wants is our hearts, hearts that love him. I can well imagine someone Out There, never heard of Jesus, but knows there is some God somewhere and seeks to honour him with all his heart. Perhaps a Taoist who rejects the myriad of gods in his pantheon and devotes himself to the One High God in the Taoist religion who is above them all? Paul himself refers to those who seek the "Unknown God", Acts 17:23. Indeed, I have heard a story from "deepest darkest Africa", one of the tribes there. (dang it, I don't remember all the details...I thought I'd upgraded my memory, too) They had received years before "white man" appeared a prophecy (was it their shaman who saw this vision? I don't recall) The basic idea of their prophecy was that God himself would come down from heaven to save them from fire and destruction. They had no idea who this God was, had no idea what the prophecy meant or how it would be fulfilled, but they devoted themselves to him and worshipped, without knowing his name. But when they eventually heard the story of Jesus, they understood that he was what their prophecy was referring to, this was what they had been waiting for, and they became Christians. But the other side of this is that if an individual has heard of what Jesus has done for him, then what position does that leave him in? Is his heart in it? So, one way or the other, God tests a man's heart, to see if that heart accepts the love of God expressed through Jesus Christ. A final comment on this point, this is exactly why we have been given the task of making sure everyone has heard about Jesus (Matt 28:19), so people can believe fully, without ignorance of what they are believing in. I fully believe the end will come not when 2000 A.D. arrives, or something irrelevent like that, but when the story of Jesus has been brought to every nation and tribe and language (see Mark 13:10 in its context) The Bible, holistically. "The Bible" which is the history of the children of Abraham and of course of Adam and Eve. My reference to the Bible was perhaps unclear, because I was thinking in the terms of the "Old Testament" as a history of the world starting with Adam & Eve and Abraham, who is the Father of Islam, the Jews and the Christians. This is my pet topic ;) I see the unity of the whole Bible, Old and New Testaments. I see it as the history, not of Abraham's children as such, but of how God is going to bring his lost children (all of them) back to himself. Abraham was just the first step in the plan, but the plan all alo ng was to save all mankind, not just the Hebrews, see Gen 12:3, "all peoples on earth will be blessed through you," and Jesus was at the core of the plan from the very beginning, Gen 3:15 "he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel" (God addressing the serpent, referring to the woman's offspring). And so, for this reason I do not see the New Testament as disparate from the Old Testament, rather it is the bringing to fruition of the plan that had been in place all along. I believe Jews For Jesus like to think of themselves as "fulfilled Jews". From one man, a nation; from a nation, the whole world. Well, that's enough for this post. if you think that this is going way off topic, then perhaps we can arrange further discussion via e-mail or IRC. No way! How can the rest of us keep an eye on your discussion if you do that!... tks I think that's a great and positive thought about metaphysically redirecting negative attraction towards boys into a positive love. Even if we may disagree over the details of the metaphysics :) F.O.D. flattery will get you everywhere... ps Mark 8:34-38, esp v35. It has a lot to do with counting the cost, too, in my opinion. |