When is boysex okay? (in response to Nate)

Nate, I'm putting this here since we were running off the screen in the other thread. Plus, I'd like to see if anyone else is interested in responding or adding to these questions or replies. Now you have me wondering what negative effects you are talking about. Aside from the possibility of catching a disease, what negative effects are there which are not societally imposed? Shame, fear, secrecy, self-doubt - all imposed by society. (I am assuming a case where a well-informed boy of an appropriate age initiates some interaction which he obviously wants.) I would think that anyone under 18 still has a lot to learn and doesn't quite know what they want. Depending upon their life's experiences, they still have a degree of naivete'. Adults will always have the advantage in an adult-minor relationship. It's too easy for adults to manipulate the relationship into something they want -- perhaps even making the minor believe he wants it too. How do we know this isn't being done? I know Dakota has made some good points along this line in many of his posts here and on OpenHands during the last year. I made one not too long ago called boylove = a love that lasts a lifetime (to which you responded), and I also made a similar post within my first couple weeks in this forum: boylove & sexual encounters. I still believe the same -- that the greatest good is achieved through a nonsexual adult-minor relationship no matter how much either person wants to introduce a sexual element into the relationship. Below are some excerpts from both above-mentioned posts. Splash ------------------------------------------------------------- boylove = a love that lasts a lifetime (October 19, 2001) by Splash Most of us do have a genuine concern for the boys with whom we come into contact. I think boylovers make great teachers, mentors, youth leaders, etc. But, I'm still concerned about how much self-control these same people would have if a boy stayed the night with them. What happens when it gets dark or when we go home? Unless we're actively involved with teaching a boy a subject (like math or English), a Bible study, a sport, or whatever, then what happens? I think there's a part of us that enjoys "flirting" with boys as a test to see how much they really like us. Unfortunately, some of us measure "like" by how sexual a person responds to us. We might think, "If a boy shows that he's sexually interested in me, then he must really like me," and then we might take it a step further to justify some kind of sexual interaction with the boy. I doubt that sex is really what either one of us wants from the other, but for some reason we might go ahead and settle for it. We take what we can get? Or maybe the immediate endorphine-rush is a lot more pleasurable to us than waiting to find out that we made a life-changing impact through our work (or friendship) with a boy. Boylovers often scare themselves with their thoughts: “How can I think such a thought? I can’t risk being around a boy if I can think of doing something like that!!” When I first started writing that 7-part post, I felt the same way. I didn’t think I had any business being around boys if I was struggling with having lustful thoughts about them also. It made me question whether I really cared about the boy. Maybe I was deceiving myself. Maybe I really wanted sex with the boy but instead I decided to settle for the more socially-acceptable mentor role? You countered this with: “Does the sexual attraction we feel for boys come from the love and caring we have for them? Is it just a way (perverted as it may be) for us to feel close to them?” I think your questions are closer to the way I feel now. I believe boylovers have such a great passion and concern for boys, not because of sexual desire but because of life’s circumstances (beliefs, experiences, etc.), that the passion we feel will often manifest itself within us as a sexual attraction or urge. Maybe it’s a chemical change within us. I’m not sure. I haven’t done a lot of research in this area yet, but I wouldn’t be surprised if chemicals and hormones like testosterone, adrenaline, and endorphines were released to make us feel some kind of sexual arousal toward the things [boys] we are most passionate about. I think it does a great disservice to both the boy and mentor (teacher, friend, whatever) if the adult is afraid to get involved in an adult-minor relationship because of some sexual feelings he may have toward the boy. Who better to help a boy than someone who is passionate about helping him? I agree with you when you say, “But I think we can achieve an unselfish love for boys if we put their needs above our own.” Many would ask us to define “unselfish love” or define “[putting] their needs above our own.” As Christian boylovers, I think we have a better understanding of what it means to do this. If our motivation to be around a boy is based on sexual attraction, are we loving him unselfishly? Or are we around the boy because he excites some kind of pleasurable sensation within our flesh? What about our spirit? And his spirit also? What are we doing for him that is unselfish? What about the ugly-looking boy who sits alone in the corner and has no friends? Are we also reaching out to him? Why or why not? It’s very important that we check our motives and seek to achieve an unselfish love for boys by putting his needs above our own. I guess I accomplished this somewhat with my YF. I was MORE concerned about his spirituality than I was concerned about my sexuality. I was his spiritual teacher MORE than anything else, and I tried my best NOT to lessen that relationship. I think I succeeded. Even when he sees me today, his thoughts go directly to his spirituality. Just think. How weird would it be to see a boy a couple years after having a sexual relationship with him? How weird would it be to have a young man thank you for the blow job you gave him when he was twelve? What did you accomplish by doing that? Why would he thank you for your sexual interest in him? How much better to be thanked for the eternal interest you showed in him -- to be thanked for the life-changing effect you made in his life! Sure it’s nice to show a boy that someone likes him, but it’s so much more powerful to have made an eternally fruitful impact on a young man’s life -- something that becomes a part of him, a way of life... something that helps direct his choices, thoughts, actions for the rest of his life without you having to physically be there coaching him every single step of the way... because now you are in his head... or better yet, you have shown him how to rely on God who’s in his heart, mind, and soul to help him overcome life’s obstacles and to talk to him when his mentor isn’t able. A true boy-lover loves boys with true love. ---------------------------------------------------------- boylove & sexual encounters (September 5, 2000) by Splash First off, I think it is important that we examine what God has to say about *any* sexual thought or behavior. I will also share my beliefs about fleshly lust and Christian holiness, and then I will tie it all in to how these beliefs should shape the life, actions, and thoughts of a boylover. During the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus taught that the sins of our heart are equal to the sins of our actions: "Ye have heard it said...Thou shalt not kill...But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment... [and] Ye have heard it said...Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart" (Matthew 5:21-22a, 27-28). In the above verse, one type of anger is seen equal to murder, and looking on someone with lust is equal to adultery. These are sins that happen in our minds, and yet Jesus is saying they are equal to outward sins (the murdering of a brother or having pre-marital/extra-marital sex). A Christian brother shared with me recently, "You have to make steps now before any seeds that you sow to the flesh catch up to you... You sow seeds to your desire and increase your desire for boys by entertaining thoughts about it... whatever we sow, we reap." I believe he is right. If we have lustful thoughts, and entertain those thoughts, it becomes sin to us. If we keep sowing these thoughts, they take fruit in other areas, becoming an obsession... an obsession that becomes so great that we are then tempted to act out on the obsessed-"sin". Read what James says: "But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death" (James 1:14-15). Lust brings forth sin, and sin leads to death. "For the wages of sin is death" (Rom 6:23). But what is lust? Is it the physical desire and sexual yearnings that one has for another person? What is wrong with this? "For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passseth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever" (1 John 2:16-17). Once again, lust is shown as bringing forth death -- it is sin -- "but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever." So what is the will of God? "...denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world" (Titus 2:12). Here we see that ungodliness is made equal with worldly lusts and righteousness is in contrast to them both. It is God's will that we live righteous lives as opposed to lives filled with lustful thoughts and ambitions. Now that we know lust is a sin, we need to discuss whether being attracted to someone is also a sin. There is a difference between lust and attraction. Attraction is caused by noticing other people's bodies and personalities. I said, "noticing." This does not mean that we undress someone with our eyes. It is normal to notice someone and even have a physical reaction in someone's presence. Oftentimes, temptation arises out of this. We then feel a desire to check out a certain area of a person's body, probably fantasize about the person in our mind, and maybe even try to purposely brush up against the person. So if the attraction and even the stimulation are not sin, what about the temptation? Temptation itself is not a sin. But it becomes a sin when we dwell on it and act on it -- lusting after someone's body, fantasizing about the person, and trying to touch the person inappropriately. Every heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, and pedophilic human has struggles with these same temptations. So, what are we supposed to do as Christians when faced with these temptations? "For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strongholds;) Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ" (2 Cor 10:3-5). Lustful thoughts should not determine how we live from day to day. If we have to visit porn sites on the Internet, we've fallen to temptation and have made lust our stronghold. As Christians, we are called to cast down imaginations (fantasies) and to take every thought into captivity through our obedience to Christ. Also, as Christians we should be aware of our example and witness to others around us. Will they be interested in our faith if we act like we don't even believe it? If we try to give them a word of advice, will they laugh at us or instead give ear to it because of the life we've lived? "But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway" (1 Cor 9:27). But what if it's too late? What if I have lustful thoughts every day and continually act them out? Seek support from another Christian -- confess your sins, and pray about them -- make yourself accountable to another person who understands your struggles or can at least sympathize with them. What if I don't think I'm doing anything wrong? What if I think it's sometimes God's purpose that I act on my sexual feelings? At times I've felt the same way. I would think, "Well, at least I'm not having premarital sex," or "I have to get rid of my sexual tension some way and this way is better than most ways." Maybe we even feel that the sexual feelings we have are a way of God drawing us to a person who we're supposed to be with. So what's wrong with that? Well, as described before, lust is sin -- it's rooted in selfishness by seeking to pleasure oneself through exciting (verb) physical emotions and other fleshly stimulation. We need to constantly check our motivations for doing things. Why are we interested in making a certain person part of our lives? Can't they get along without us? Can't God use anyone in their lives? Can He not raise laborers up out of the dust of the ground to fulfill His purposes? To think that we're God's sole chosen vessel for accomplishing a purpose is prideful, and pride is also a sin. None of us are God's gift to this world. Only One person ever was, and we're not Him. God can achieve His will through any person, any thing, any way He wants. We have to be very careful to not assume that we are the *one* that God has chosen for a specific purpose, and that's another good reason for staying in the Word, praying, and keeping a strong relationship with the Lord. I've read a lot of posts in this forum where boylovers feel that God has a purpose for them being involved in a boy's life. This *may* be true, and it may not be true. We have to be very careful to examine the reasons why we feel we should be a part of a young boy's life -- even us who have physical desires for boys. The temptations are strong for us, and it's definitely going to be a battle if we place ourselves in the middle of a situation where we're even more vulnerable to the temptations. I've heard it said before that "Anyone is capable of anything [any kind of evil] when placed in the 'right' situation at the 'right' time." We probably won't know until we get the chance, but then it'll be too late. Someone recently wrote to me saying, "Like you, I 'knew' I would never intentionally hurt a boy, but ask yourself, what would you do if a massively tempting situation presented itself?" He later added, "I thought I was strong and could control it." What would you do? Hopefully we're careful enough not to put ourselves in those kinds of situations, and hopefully we're strong enough to keep our thought-life in check and to continue being a good Christian influence on those around us. But how do we know that we are strong enough? Just don't put yourself in a situation that might make you weak. One person said, "I was 'relatively' strong for years and then..." Need I say more? So what if I end up molesting a boy, God's going to forgive me anyway, right? Perhaps. But why waste years and years of your life entertaining unhealthy thoughts and acting out on them, knowing it's sin? "For I know the plans I have for you..." (Jeremiah 29:11). God has plans for each one of us. What a disgrace it would be to live our lives as defeated Christians who never skim the surface of all God has planned for us. We're called to be overcomers! How weak of us to stay at home, look at pornography, and fantasize about little boys. What a waste. God has so much more in store for us, but how can we ever know this when we're living our lives in sin? Not only does sin keep us from accomplishing great things, but it also keeps us from having an intimate relationship with the Lord -- the One who wants to spend time with us, talk with us, and guide us through our lives. The One who died for us. How can we so easily turn our backs on Him and what He has to offer? "What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's" (1 Cor 6:19-20). Everything we do with our bodies affects our spirit. Sex with boys is sin -- it comes about because of physical desires that have no spiritual benefit to the man or the boy. What does it accomplish? It may prove your ability to conquer someone, have control over them -- perhaps this makes you feel good about yourself. It may make you feel loved and accepted, but at the expense of the boy (which I'll discuss a little later). You may have to bribe the boy which is a way of buying affection (or maybe just purchasing sex which is prostitution). It may make you feel important to someone -- it puffs you up. It may help you relieve sexual tensions that you gained from lusting after boys. In the end, it's all about obtaining pleasure for oneself. Selfishness. Sex is meant to be an expression of lifelong commitment -- but this is rarely the case, if ever, when talking about sex with boys. Think about the boy -- is he choosing to have sex with you? Why or why not? Is he doing it because he loves you? Are you doing it because you love him? Is he doing it because he feels he wants to be your friend/lover for life? How about you? But do you also have sex with other boys? What kind of commitment is it when you're giving your "intimacy" to more than one person? I just think it's a good idea to question our motives. As I said before (in another post), we are all humans, and as humans our motives are almost always based on selfishness -- doing something to gain something for ourselves. Sexual intercourse is intended to express oneness, in which each gives himself or herself voluntarily and wholly to the other. Sex for any other purpose is manipulating another person to meet our prideful and/or selfish goals. What happens when that boy (if it's only one) grows up and has a life of his own? What kind of relationship did you have with him? Was it one based on mutual trust and respect where you acted purely in the form of a mentor and discipled him into becoming a potentially powerful Christian man? Or was sex also a part of the relationship? How will you feel when he grows up to have relationships with other people? Will you feel rejected? Maybe you might even think that he used you? Maybe he freely gave himself to you because of the things you did for him -- the money you gave him, the toys you bought, the places you took him, etc. From his point of view, the relationship was quite different. And now that he's grown and gone away you'll find yourself craving that love and respect even worse. And who will you try to get it from? Who will you use to fill that emptiness inside you? Will you use another boy and have the same thing happen again? You might become so dead, empty, and hard-hearted that you'll never have a chance of ever having a relationship with the Lord, you may even fall away and lose your salvation entirely without hope of forgiveness, depending whether or not you're willing to risk a chance on the doctrine "once saved, always saved" -- and even then, how will you know that you were ever truly saved in the first place? If you can't keep communion with God by having a daily relationship with Him, how are you going to know where you stand with Him? We can't ever depend upon sex to keep a relationship bound with another person. Sex is physical. Without the spiritual element, the relationship will fall apart. How many man/boy relationships are truly spiritual? Let me rephrase that -- How many man/boy *sexual* relationships are truly spiritual? How can they be? It's self-deception otherwise. Just think about how the boy views you. Does he see you as a Christian example, if that's who you proclaim to be? What does your relationship with the boy say about love? What does it say about physical desires? And what does it say about spiritual growth? How about holiness? How about having an intimate relationship with the Lord? How is God able to love us without making it sexual? He does accomplish this, doesn't He? What kind of "Father" figure are you being if you introduce sex into your relationship with a boy? Will that not damage his perception of what he should be as a man or father when he grows up and what he believes to be the true character of his Holy Father (God)? I had a good Christian relationship with a boy to whom I was sexually attracted. (I've gone into great detail about this in previous posts). For awhile he referred to me as "the Bible man" or "Mr. Bible" and things like that. That is how he viewed me. And though we did a lot of fun things outside of church and talking about God, he always knew that Jesus was at the core of our relationship with each other. My purpose was to help him grow as a Christian young man, and his purpose was to learn from my influence, develop a relationship with the Lord, and grow as a Christian. There were many opportunities for me to change my relationship with the boy into a physical/sexual one. He acted out sexually a few times -- I could've taken advantage of those times. And he lived with me -- I was his mother's boyfriend (which was discussed in yet another post). There were many times we were alone. But you know what I kept thinking about? Whenever I'd get "those feelings" I'd think about how it would affect my relationship with the boy, my relationship with God, and his relationship with God. Also, how would he have viewed Christians and his own Christianity, knowing that I was a Christian and had fallen to fleshly desires at the expense of a young naive innocent potentially powerful Christian boy? And would he then think it okay for Christians to set aside their spirituality at moments of sexual temptation? Besides, isn't it also a sin to entice others to lust, especially a boy who is young in the faith? Jesus said, "And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me. But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!" (Matthew 18:5-7). This is a very tough verse, if not the toughest, for boylovers to swallow. This verse is so important that it is repeated three times in the New Testament -- Matthew 18, Mark 9, and Luke 7. It would do many well to read the whole thing, and the verses that follow, including: "Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 18:10). Do you see what this verse is saying? Jesus is warning us. He says that children have angels that are at the same time watching over them and looking at the face of God! Do you know what that means?! The angels, while in the presence of God, are also watching you interact with the children over whom they watch!! It's an awesome thing! But it is also "a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God" (Hebrews 10:31). Another Christian boylover recently wrote, "You are feeding your own selfish desires by abusing another person -- using them to fulfill your own selfish needs... Don't ever buy into that unconditional love crap. It's selfish, selfish, selfish. I don't show any care for that boy at all by abusing him with my thoughts... Truly caring about the boy requires me to keep HIS interests in mind. What is best for HIS growth in maturity and holiness and relationship with the Lord? I do not need to encourage him to spend a lot of time with me -- that is too selfish. Do parents strive to get alone with their kids so that they can enjoy each others' company one-on-one? Not the way that I want to do with boys -- I have to make sure of what is truly in their interest and what is in mine." It is important that we, as Christians, fellowship with each other, exhort one another, and be there for another -- much more importantly since we share a common struggle. We need to find others who are mature in the faith, confess our sins to them, ask for prayer, and be accountable. One thing that always helps me, and I always suggest it to people who are struggling with sin (because they most likely haven't done it in awhile), is to sit down and read the Bible. Read anything -- a Bible story, Jesus' words, Paul's letters, prophecy, Psalms, Proverbs, anything. It's worked for me many times. It draws us closer to the Lord and opens up a line of communication between us and the Lord. Makes us stop and think too. Most people don't even take the time to think. It helps. I pray you thoroughly consider all that I said, and the biblical support I tried to give along with my words. There are a lot of funky types of thinking going on in the world today. Paul warned Timothy, "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables" (2 Tim 4:3). You also be strong -- stay close to the Lord and read the Bible. I suggest you read Colossians 3. Peace! -----------------------------------------------------